The QBS Express

QBS_Ep031_OttoMcGown
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Scott Heidner: [00:00:00] Welcome listeners to the QBS Express, the ACEC Kansas podcast. I'm your host, Executive Director Scott Heitner, and I'm excited to have with me today, this is an annual podcast we do, and one of my favorite every year, this is our president and past president. So across the table for me, I have our past president, Cameron McGown with HNTB and our current president, Agnes Otto with Burns and McDonald.

Thank you both for making time to join us today.

Cameron McGown: Thanks for having us.

Agnes Otto: Great to be here.

Scott Heidner: So, this is the next in a series. We started doing this a few years. It's one of my favorites and we get a lot of feedback that it's the favorites of some of our listeners too. We hope to do two things.

Today we want to talk to you about your [00:01:00] journey and specifically what it means to be involved in ACC and candidly hope that might inspire and empower some other people to want to get involved too, but also to talk about what ACC is doing right now. What's our activity focus? What's the value proposition that we're providing for our members.

So with that let's dive right in. Agnes, why don't we start with you? Not ACEC specific, just Agnes auto specific. Give us the Reader's Digest version of your career journey.

Agnes Otto: Yeah, you bet. Appreciate that very much, Scott. So I figured that my career path. Should be heartening to all of the parents out there whose kids don't know what they want to be when they grow up.

I am a little unusual in the engineering world in that I have a biology pre med degree. I would say that I never did anything with it. But let's just say that all those hours of calculus and physics have come in handy. I've had an interesting past in that I worked for an ad agency in a chamber of [00:02:00] commerce, but I found the engineering world in the late nineties and really never looked back.

It was an industry that I have just come to know love and feel is my own. I have gotten to work with some great organizations. HNTB, WSP and now Burns and McDonnell. Wonderful career challenges. A lot of my early work was around technology and innovation. Launching into the world when the internet was still a glimmer in its founder's eyes and leveraging that to win really big infrastructure projects across the country. And transportation has always been a love. Even in my early days, I was able to work on things like the I 35, I 29, North America's super highway that would take transcontinental trade from ports down in Mexico all the way to Canada.

Scott Heidner: Boy, they say, what is the old saying? There's nothing new under the sun. Isn't it funny how that? [00:03:00] incredibly relevant when you started 25, 28 years ago and extremely relevant to today's political conversations too.

Agnes Otto: That's pretty amazing. And I think even in those days, for those folks in the industry, they'll recognize names that I knew way back then, the Scott Smiths and Mike DeBacker and that whole lineup of folks were front and center on the regional stage driving those things out.

And it's just been remarkably rewarding to have been, I really still feel like I'm adopted into the engineering world. And for someone who's adopted, I sure feel like, you know, lots of ownership here and lots of love from my step parents and step siblings.

Scott Heidner: One more question before we move on to Cameron tell us, you said you entered the infrastructure transportation world in the 90s. How did that happen?

Agnes Otto: So, I was working at the Chamber of Commerce and we were sitting around one day and the [00:04:00] Chamber owned the license for the World Trade Center.

And I had, for the first time, leveraged an international program for the Chamber. It was the very first time that they'd ever done anything. And we did a, a ton of things. But one of the things that was a brainchild was to turn that World Trade Center license into a virtual World Trade Center. And if anybody knows anything about working with the Chamber of Commerce, tremendous opportunities.

If your kids don't know what they want to be when they grow up, go make them work for a Chamber. And I, through my ad agency days, knew some folks at HNTB who did web design, and we were developing a group called the International Investors, and I called up Bob Coma at HNTB, and he said, yeah, we'll donate 25, 000, but we'll make it an in kind, and we'll develop the website for you.

And so, As I'm working with the team at HNTB who did all that work, I [00:05:00] said, man, you guys do amazing stuff, and you're here in the middle of this firm. You really need somebody to sell this for you. And they said, well, as a matter of fact, our boss just left. So I interviewed and got the job, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Scott Heidner: Serendipity.

Agnes Otto: Yeah, so completely, went in thinking I was going to be this technology salesperson, and today I manage a whole profit and loss center for them.

Scott Heidner: Yeah,

Agnes Otto: pretty cool organization.

Scott Heidner: Very cool. Yeah. Well Cameron, what about you? What's the Reader's Digest on your background?

Cameron McGown: Well, my path is not like Agnes's at all, actually.

I think I had a more common path in that, you know, when I was I just had an interest in math and science. Maybe one similarity though is I actually did start college as pre med and that second semester of chemistry led me to believe that that was maybe not the best path. So, got interested in engineering.

And I will say also when I was in [00:06:00] high school, I attended a high school program that was for engineering students. It was actually sponsored by Tom Roberts and Tom was somebody that just really encouraged me even as a 16, 17 year old student to consider going into engineering.

And so that summer I attended. this kind of summer program at K state that he sponsored. I think they still have it, but I'm not quite sure it's called the same thing, but attended that and really got interested in engineering. And he convinced me that I could still be in engineering and have an interest in pre med and eventually that shook out to not having an interest in pre med.

So, fairly, common way that I found my way into engineering. In terms of my professional background, you know, when I was a student interned at a handful of places, including at HNTB, I actually interned here for two summers and then really enjoyed the time that I spent here, got to work on some really awesome projects, even [00:07:00] as a student.

And it really drew me in and so I came to work here full time and now I've been here for 10 years. 22 years and it basically had a lot of great roles here in our practice here in the Kansas City area and in Overland Park, Kansas. Really ranging from college intern up to now I kind of lead our practice and our location here in the Overland Park office.

Scott Heidner: Almost a bit of a unicorn these days. The one firm. When the three of us started our careers, that was probably more of the norm and now it's become very much the exception. Let's charge ahead into a CEC. When I say charge ahead, let's start by looking back. This is really A podcast is meant to do a bit of a review of 2024 and a look ahead to 2025.

But looking back first, we had a good legislative session last year under your combined leadership. Tell us a little bit about what transpired.

Agnes Otto: Well, let me chime in. I think the most [00:08:00] remarkable thing that we saw last session was really all of the improvements and discussion around water, and probably going to be, continue to be important.

I think, Scott, you used those numbers for us. We had three issues bills that came up in the session previously, and we had like 28 that came through in last session.

Scott Heidner: The water topic.

Agnes Otto: On the water topic. And incredibly important. You know, I think the water supply, the Ogallala Aquifer and and the issues that Kansas faces across the board from agriculture to to commercial interest.

So we will. That was incredibly important last year. We'll, we'll continue, we'll continue to look at those water issues as, as they arise.

Scott Heidner: And I might interject one comment. This has not happened yet, and it's going to be a very difficult journey to get to completion, but a lot of talk of creating or treating water similar to transportation, and that it might require a 10 year plan with a fixed investment schedule, that kind of [00:09:00] thing.

It would be awesome if that happened and my goodness is that light years ahead of where what we were talking about for water Infrastructure financing just you know four years ago

Cameron McGown: Yeah, there's no question that this last session water was the the big emphasis and the big winner, but there were some good things in other industries, too you know big win on the vertical side with some changes to legislation that adjusted the Contract maximums that could be awarded under on calls.

That's certainly something that we championed and see as a big advantage both for our member firms, as well as a good thing for the agencies. And then

Scott Heidner: we got, if I can, jump in too hopefully Lord willing, we don't have to address it for awhile. Cause we indexed them too. Yeah. Didn't just bump up the caps, but.

You know, hopefully inflation hit in there that will keep them relevant for years to come.

Cameron McGown: Nope, that's an excellent, an excellent point. The big feature of that legislation that went through last year. And then, of course [00:10:00] fully funding KDOT. And this is, I think, the third year in a row that that has been the case.

That is certainly a huge accomplishment in a very different place than where we might have found ourselves several years ago, but very happy to see that that trend is continuing.

Scott Heidner: Yeah, and you say KDOT specifically, the, the Ike program. Correct. Yeah, it's come a long way from having all of those sales tax transfers swept away for other purposes.

Cameron McGown: Indeed.

Scott Heidner: And does anybody want to talk about? I would put my cards on the table and say, I think some of the most important accomplishments in 2024 or what didn't happen,

Agnes Otto: Right? Just the basic Blocking and tackling, you know, safeguarding licensure, making sure that folks in our state who are executing engineering are qualified to execute engineering.

You talked about sales tax and I know we keep a close eye on any sales tax implications that have a negative impact to [00:11:00] infrastructure spending. And again, those are basic blocking and tackling and Just make sure that we're, looking at the letter of all the legislations that's coming through.

Scott Heidner: I'll add one editorial comment, and then I want to move forward and talk about partnering arrangements we have. But one thing that's It's difficult to convey the value of, but so often I think some of the most important things we do or what we ensure doesn't happen or what our members may or may not really hear about.

It's so common for us to see pieces of legislation. Cameron, you made the comment over lunch today that you know, we're usually not the target of these things. It's usually incidental and unintentional. We get swept in, but swept in, we are right. And one of the most important things we do are. The conversations we have with those bills, authors and stakeholders to say, look, it's you didn't intend to sweep us in and it's not our ambition to kill your bill, but you know, here's what it is doing regardless.

And we've [00:12:00] knock on wood the last several years, including last year, we've had a lot of success in finding good partners in the authors of those bills that are willing to take our issue to heart and to work with us and to edit the bill so that There is no harm and those don't get a lot of press because it's sort of a non story, right?

The bill got changed and when it was heard and considered it didn't have anything bad in it But that's that's with a lot of legwork behind scenes.

Cameron McGown: I will add to that just That is one thing that the organization benefits from your leadership and BHL, you know, you guys are there reading All these bills and possess the relationships with many of these decision makers So we know sometimes it doesn't always make a headline, but I think it's important to recognize that that's A very important function that you guys do for us.

Scott Heidner: It's awfully kind of you to say so. And we certainly better. That's our job. Well, let's talk [00:13:00] about partnering relationships we have. For some of our listeners, they may not have a familiarity with any of it. For many of our listeners, they may know about the actual formal structured partnering committees, which we do want to talk about.

But as you both know, When we talk about the world of partnerships that exists under ACC Kansas, it's a lot more than that. It's very broad. So, I'll throw the floor open. Who wants to talk about some of those?

Cameron McGown: I can, I can start. So this is certainly a primary function of AC, AC Kansas is to make sure that we're creating the opportunities for our members to engage with many of these agencies that we do business with.

This is why we have standing. Partnering committees with a number of these agencies including KDOT road and bridge squads the Corps of Engineers and then a lot of the other state design agencies and really what these Provide is an opportunity for us to engage on business issues Directly with the leaders and decision [00:14:00] makers of all those organizations.

So it's hard to overemphasize The value that comes from that and just having that environment where you can have that trusted and sometimes challenging conversations, but the need to be had for the betterment of both our industry and those agencies, hopefully.

Scott Heidner: Yeah. A couple other comments on that.

It is another thing that often goes unseen and uncelebrated, but it's a big deal. These agencies, many times, not always, but many times, if they want to make a change in policy, whether that's procurement or contracting or payment terms or indemnification, you name it, they will come to those partnering committees and put it on the table for conversation.

And mercy being able to be a part of that conversation while they're still thinking about it versus hey we've talked internally. We had a focus team. We came to this policy. We've written it down here it is and now you have to go back and try and [00:15:00] negotiate on that it's a seismic difference. You guys are good about keeping your A.

C. E. C. hat on and not your more parochial firm hat. But with those partnering committees from a, you know, more self motivated business perspective, it doesn't hurt that there are only six people of all the thousands of people in Kansas working on projects with these agencies. There's six of them from A.

C. E. C. That are sitting across the table from this client leadership team and gets that exposure. So yeah, That doesn't hurt either, but there's a lot more than just the former partnering committees

Agnes Otto: Yeah, let me chime in a little bit I do think that it's really important that these committees provide great common ground whether you're in industry whether you're an agency many times it's that sort of You know leave your, leave your logos at the door, come to the table and look at solving solutions that are for the good of all.

One of the things we've been doing for a while [00:16:00] now is an informal meeting that happens about quarterly with KDHE leaders looking at water issues across the state and how we can jointly help address some of those. We meet with KDOT leaders once a month for a luncheon and it's really intended to try to break down and ask some of those more challenging questions.

It's also equally important to show gratitude when important things have been accomplished. Long term linkage with KSPE. I probably couldn't tell you, Scott, how far that goes back, but

Scott Heidner: Longer than any of us have been alive.

Agnes Otto: Oh, there you go.

Scott Heidner: True statement.

Agnes Otto: There you go. So, the Kansas Society of Professional Engineers and ACEC President Alex sits on that board every year and, represents professional engineering firms.

We actively engage in soliciting award applications for the, Kansas Association of Counties and the League of Kansas Municipalities. I did have the luxury this year of going and helping to confer those awards. It's really, first of all, those rooms [00:17:00] are full of people who care and really important to get that kind of recognition of our municipal and county leadership along with our consultants who are pushing projects forward.

Scott Heidner: Can I, do you mind if I say something about that specifically before? You guys move on because I know there's probably some other partnership things you want to visit about, but the awards programs for listeners out there again, Cameron and Agnes do a nice job of really wearing the industry hat as opposed to their own firm hats.

The best thing about the City and County Public Improvement Awards is that they're given out at League of Municipalities and Kansas Association of Counties events. And why does that matter? It is when you go up on stage and accept your award you are literally standing in front of every municipal or every county client in the state of Kansas being recognized as a great engineering Company.

What would you pay for that kind of PR? I mean, [00:18:00] you know, when's the last time you agreed to drop 500 or 1000 bucks to put your business card in some magazine? This is direct marketing at its best. And we probably don't do a good enough job of selling that part of the awards program, but it's pretty huge.

It really is.

Cameron McGown: Yeah, so get your nominations in for those awards because there's certainly a lot of great opportunity there

Scott Heidner: You guys have other part before we move on

Cameron McGown: yeah, I mean, I think economic lifelines is certainly one that is worth mentioning here. So for those that might not know what economic lifelines is, it's really a grassroots organization here in Kansas that advocates for robust and consistent funding for transportation at the state level.

It is an organization that's not just made up of industry individuals, but also cities and counties. Chambers of Commerce, economic development groups, as well as [00:19:00] members from the industry, both on the contractor side and on the engineering side. So we have the benefit right now of having a couple of our ACEC representatives on the Executive Committee of Economic Lifelines, myself and Brett Lukowski.

And really, I think the partnership there with the other Members of economic lifelines and especially some of the other industry partners and the contractors is really going to continue to be important as we work through the back part of the of the Ike program in the next several years and then even more forward looking as we look at what happens after that.

Scott Heidner: Yeah. And the economic lifelines, it is, you know, not to toot our own horn a little bit, but it's just us and the contractors with more than one seat on that board, you know, it is a full presence.

Agnes Otto: And maybe to sort of round out the conversation on partnerships, I think it's important that we talk about our investment in the next generation and the scholarships that we're committed [00:20:00] to boy hats off to Carla Waters and all the work that that woman has done for years and years.

Having assisted her with the scholarship reviews last year, and I think we plowed through 19 applications just. Really, shout out to Carla. Huge. Thanks for all your work. Just huge. For any of you who've got smart young people in your lives, which we probably all do, make sure that they're taking advantage of these scholarships.

It's heartening to read about all the talent that's out there, and everybody should take a stint at that application review process. There are also some real No brainers in terms of how to fill out that application so that you don't leave points on the table. So, Reach out to your friends and find out what some of those tips are.

But Big part of the future, and I know ACEC's, you know, absolutely committed to continuing that support.

Scott Heidner: Couple notes on that just so everybody knows, when you see that email come out about scholarships, there are two levels of scholarship if you win at the state level. It's a multi thousand [00:21:00] dollar award, and there are multiple of those awards.

We give out either three or four multi thousand dollar awards every year at the state level. So, if you think about it, let's say we have four of those. Last year you said there were 19 applicants. I mean, that's over a 20 success rate right there But then the winners move on to acc national where the scholarship dollar numbers really get big, you know up to and including five figures and in some cases, you know a trip out to the acc fall conference, you know with 800 prospective Employers there what have you all expenses paid?

Pretty big deal and last comment i'll make about that it is astounding when you look at the size of Kansas compared to other states, what you would statistically expect our success rate to be at the national level. We are at Ten times that our students have just performed so well and have brought home so much scholarship money.

So great opportunity [00:22:00] okay, well, let's Shift gears and talk about some of the meetings that we do we talked about partnering committee meetings But let's talk about the meetings that we do that are open to the full membership or larger audiences to attend and some of the continuing education components that comes from that because that's the focus of a lot of our efforts as well.

Who wants to chime in?

Agnes Otto: Yeah, you bet. These are membership lunches that we offer typically in the fall where We spread ourselves out around our Kansas cities. We are leveraging our board members contacts into each of those cities, making sure that we're developing some pretty interesting content and we're covering everything from projects in the area to future capital spending and really trying to create a real linkage and a forum for agency as well as consultant conversations.

The ACEC KDOT partnership conference, we might have hit a record attendance this year.

Scott Heidner: I think we did.

Agnes Otto: Really great exchange, meaningful exchange of both across the consulting [00:23:00] industry and with KDOT leadership the Water Quality Seminar, the Rural Development Seminar, really just trying to create those linkages and opportunities for all of our members and agencies that are.

You know, literally making work happen every day

Scott Heidner: And the water quality and rural development. Some of our members will be familiar with that, but if you're not, probably the one thing I would tell you is that is a smorgasbord of state agencies that come to the table for those. So again, having an opportunity to have those conversations with a variety of client.

Organizations is awesome and it's a networking opportunity, a big one, just not being present. Well, let's move on and talk about my favorite topic of all time, QBS related or excuse me, ACC related, or maybe just my favorite topic in the world. Who wants to proselytize about all that we do for qualifications based selection or QBS, which is the namesake of this podcast.

Cameron McGown: I was going to say, [00:24:00] we are recording the QBS express podcast. And clearly this should come out as a top tier item. I mean, this is the number one issue that ACC works towards both at the national level and certainly at the state level. And one thing that might not be well known is, you know, at the state level here in Kansas, there is a state law that requires state agencies to use qualifications based selection in the selection process for their projects, but that doesn't necessarily, that does not flow down to local governments, cities, and counties.

And so As a state organization, we spend a lot of time, I'll say in two different arenas. One is defending where we are currently on state level contracts, but then. When the opportunity arises, finding an opportunity to promote or encourage locals to use that, and in some cases engage when we see that QBS isn't being used in some cases.

So, we have a really great resource Dave [00:25:00] Comstock, who has been a resource for ACC Kansas for many years now. He does such a fantastic job of engaging with cities and counties in particular whenever there is a QBS issue. So, I'm always surprised by this. I've been a part of the board for, I don't know, four years now or something like that.

There is a QBS issue that arises every year, at least one, and we spend a lot of time talking about it as a board, about how best to engage, and sometimes we engage Dave on that, and sometimes we don't, but it is a topic that is of utmost importance to the organization, and it's something that we take very seriously and try and make sure That if not everyone has seen the light on the value of QBS, we do our best to shine a light on it.

Scott Heidner: And I'll put in a plug, you mentioned David Comstock. He, we do have a relationship with him as our QBS facilitator. Listeners may be familiar with this, but I think we can't say it enough because frankly, we don't get a lot of uptake [00:26:00] asking him to join in not near as often as I believe we probably should.

If we could be successful in our awareness efforts, making everybody. Knowledgeable about this, but what we do is let members contact us. Anytime you see an RFP that should be an RFQ, they're asking for hours of prices, you can contact us and we will have David, we will ask David to reach out to that owner group.

But what is super critical, a big part of the reason ACEC exists is to act as the buffer with your client groups. You know, It costs you some of your personal and relationship capital for you all to go to a client and have a variety of these conversations so we can do it as a CEC to try and protect that relationship.

And this is the perfect example. Nobody wants to go to their client and say, Hey, the. procurement process you're using is a mistake. Like you don't want to do that. And [00:27:00] so we will do it. And when David contacts these folks, he never ever, ever uses the name of a firm or an individual. It is simply, I am David Comstock.

I represent the consulting engineering industry, and we would love to be a resource to you. How can we help? Can we come out and visit with you? Can we provide some materials? Can we have a good conversation about the value proposition? So if you are listening out there and next time you have a client that asks you to bid on your work I hope you will send me an email or pick up the phone and call because that is a big, big part of what we do as ACC Kansas.

I will ask maybe my second favorite ACEC topic. Almost as, as much of a favorite is QBS. Talk to me a little bit about the Emerging Leaders Program.

Cameron McGown: Well, so I went through Emerging Leaders. It's been a few years now. I think it was 2013 or so, somewhere in 2011, 2013, somewhere in that range. You should know the answer to that offhand.

Scott Heidner: You [00:28:00] keep talking, I'm going to look it up right now.

Cameron McGown: It's somewhere in there. But it is really the premier leadership program, in my opinion, for, Private sector engineering firms that is really targeted towards those kind of up and comers in your organization, folks that show a lot of promise of being future leaders within your firm and you know, from my own experience there, I can certainly say there were complete aspects of the engineering business that I frankly just didn't have a lot of visibility to until I went through this program.

And you learn about it. the importance of government relations. And if you've been through the program, you better know that you better know your state senator and your state representative, or Scott will call you out the next time he sees you. But the importance of those relationships, the importance of, understanding what good financial governance looks like, understanding things like.

Insurance [00:29:00] and all those things that affect your engineering business. I think it's an eye opening experience for rising leaders within your organization to get some visibility to those types of issues and help them grow on their journey to become better leaders.

Scott Heidner: Yeah. And I did look it up while you were visiting. Thanks to the outstanding Wi Fi here at HNT Media Recorders, I was quickly able to discern your first instinct was right. 2013.

Cameron McGown: There you go. See, I wasn't too far off.

Scott Heidner: Very good. I'm impressed. As usual, I'll add one little plug to what's already been said, and then I want to move on to a more personal story of you all and your journey with ACEC.

But one of the other benefits of ELP we've touched on over and over again with these partnering committees and other things, it's the relationships that you build that are such a value to our members and their companies. And I would say with ELP, it's just times five. We only take one person per firm.

each year and we take 20. So there are 20 firms represented there [00:30:00] every year. And one of the things we try to really inculcate in the folks is that yes, there are 19 competitors in here, but there are 19 partners. You know, how often do you partner on somebody with a project and you know, you can develop the kind of relationships where somebody wants to call you.

To partner on things or they don't and ELP provides an extraordinary opportunity because you're not just meeting with people from that firm, but you're meeting the people who are probably going to be leading that firm over the next 20 years. And you spend a lot of time with them. The relationship is very impactful.

Agnes Otto: You're going to have to let me tag in, Scott.

Scott Heidner: Sure, yeah, please. Please, please.

Agnes Otto: I can't say I'm an ELP grad, although I feel like maybe I should be grandmothered in. You know, I'm more of a senior butterfly at this point in time than emerging, but I did want to share, and this is as relevant and as recent as last week, but Allison Bruner, who is an ELP grad.

This is the [00:31:00] convergence of ELP and QBS. She got an RFQ, RFP, she's reviewing, and it's asking for a FISA medal. And she just took it upon herself to draft a little email out to the client. Said, are you okay with me sending this? And it was so well worded, and I thought I was going to have to call in Dave and our buddies, and, and literally the client responded back, thank you so much for the heads up, I'm on it, that language will be taken out of the next addendum.

So, it's working.

Scott Heidner: No doubt. Fantastic.

That makes my heart full. And God bless Allison. She is a patriot. Outstanding.

Agnes Otto: She will take it. I'm going to lean right into my personal story. So, Joe Dremel. So y'all heard, you know, not an engineer, a little bit of a late bloomer, but Joe Dremel called me and said, hey, there's this thing called the ACEC National PAC, and [00:32:00] we're looking for a fundraiser.

I, you know, haven't been meeting our goals, but, you know, don't let that worry you. But if you figure out a way to do this, there, you know, this could be a path to being on the ACEC board with you. And I, of course, didn't have enough to do at work at the time and decided to take that on.

But it really was, it will go down in history as a good decision. I think Scott, you and I met. Abdul Hamada gets the credit for the first introduction to you at an Economic Lifelines meeting.

Scott Heidner: Was it Economic Lifelines? I was going to ask if it was that or one of the member lunches, but I think you're right.

Agnes Otto: It was, it was

meeting on one of the transportation days at the Capitol. But man, it wasn't what I thought it would be. All that and more, I think just the relationships, you know, people that I've known for years, but when you sit in that boardroom and, you know, you have the combination of both confidential conversations, but conversations that need to be pushed out need to be delved into, might need to do a little arm wrestling on that's been really [00:33:00] important you know, getting to meet the folks from National you know, having the benefit of seeing how things are happening in different corners of the US, love the Research Institute. I think the ACEC Research Institute is going to just continue to be a bright shining star. Their work on research around alternative delivery, lump sum contracts. All of these things are so relevant to all of our businesses. I could go on, I should give Cameron a chance to tackle that one too.

Cameron McGown: Well yeah, my kind of journey onto the board was, a little different. I would say mine really started with emerging leaders. That was really my first meaningful engagement with with a C. E. C. But then work, you know, coming out of that really enjoyed a lot of the things that I experienced there.

Went through the Emerging leaders executive training. Yeah, do you remember the title a couple of rounds of that which at the time was was open You know only to ELP grads and then at the [00:34:00] encouragement of you know a couple of folks within my firm my cast one of your former president of Or a past president of ACEC, but also Joe Dremel.

Both of them kind of encouraged me to continue to stay engaged. And so worked my way on to the KDOT partnering committee and served, I think, three years there. And then eventually on to the board, and I've been part of the board for the last four. So I've kind of had a steady engagement going back to, you know, starting with my time with ELP.

So that's kind of how I came on to it I in terms of The benefits and some of the things that I think are just the most rewarding about serving on the board I think Agnes you touched on a number of them. There's so many great resources at the national level with the programs that you mentioned Really, I'm impressed every year when we attend things like the National Conference in Washington, D.

C., and the quality and [00:35:00] caliber of both the programming and the individuals that you get to interact with there is extremely important and inspiring in some cases. But I think it does go back to a lot of the relationships that you build with the other board members. There are Folks on our board that are just top notch individuals from every firm that they represent.

You get a chance to get to know them so much more deeply in that setting and really get a chance To know where you might end up making good chances to partner together or work together and that sort of thing it's pretty rewarding

Scott Heidner: on that note.

I want to ask you both a question You I've said this two or three times already But the both of you and all our ACC leaders are so good about not focusing on what can it do for me? What can it do for my company put the industry head on and mostly we talked about the ACC fact and then I'll jump in with a editorial comment about the You know, good at personally does your companies, your firms.

Let me reverse the order here before we talk a little bit more about what [00:36:00] the board does and its mission and all of that, let me put the cart before the horse this time and say, do talk to me a little bit about beyond giving back to the industry, beyond the, you know, nonpartisan hat you wear serving ACEC.

There is benefit. To your company through, you know, relationships, awareness, knowledge talk, not to talk a long time, but touch on at least a little bit and I'll put cards on the table. The reason I want you to touch on this selfishly is because every ACC member has to make a decision every year.

Is it right? Worth our investment to be a member and then when they're a member they have to ask the question Is it worth the investment of our people's time to have them participate and in my chair, of course I'm highly cognizant sensitive to that and so would love for you to Touch on briefly what it means for your companies and you and you

Cameron McGown: I might just I'll take a shot at it first but I do think that particularly when you [00:37:00] look at the Relationships with elected officials is one particular area.

I mean, being associated with a C. E. C. And the types of events that are put on by a C. E. C. There are some very natural opportunities for you to engage with legislators in particular or other decision makers within client organizations that It means something that it is ACEC that is coming to them with that issue or that is hosting that event and You get to be part of that.

It's a very natural way for you to engage with those individuals that you might not do if you were trying to do it by yourself or just your firm and so that is a huge benefit that I think is hard to understate

Scott Heidner: You want to add anything Agnes?

Agnes Otto: I almost don't know where to start without it turning into a dissertation.

Let me let me touch base on just a couple things and I'll do it quickly Scholarships and awards really important one of our scholarship winners. [00:38:00] I Truly believe our ability to give her an application and have her win is part of what converted her to a full time employee really important the scholarships and being able to shine a light on The ideas and the investments that our clients have another really great benefit and then just doubling down on what Cameron said, those relationships at the state house in D.

C. are really important. And I think we probably all, wasn't it a schoolhouse rock thing that was, I'm just a bill, I'm a

Scott Heidner: bill, I'm just a bill,

Agnes Otto: won't start singing it, you can Scott. But you do forget how all of that happens and it's really important to know where that money comes from and It's been a little bit shocking for me to see how quickly that needle can swing we've seen some interesting executive orders in the last few days maybe we shouldn't spend a lot of time on that, but it is really important that we as voters Inside of our companies.

I really think it's a big part of corporate stewardship [00:39:00] that folks understand. Excuse me, where those dollars come from How it happens and how easily and sometimes not so easily those changes can be influenced and that's been a huge benefit for us

Scott Heidner: I'll again add one that from my chair. I Perceive is being a huge benefit to everybody that gets involved.

So, you know, life is, professionally is a collective journey of relationships and knowledge, right? And, and one thing with ACEC, because of the caliber of people that get involved, and the depth of their relationships, something that I think has got to be a huge value for folks is simply, I will use a board meeting as an example Such smart folks there and throughout the course of any day, you know, Jeff Hancock might speak up and he knows something about surveying, whether that's the struggles to get continuing education or new standards and technology, but he [00:40:00] will share something that nobody else at the table knew and a ton of the folks at our table either have or impacted by surveying.

That's value, you know, and I just use that as an example, but you could extrapolate that through Anything, you know, somebody knows about a proposed change in contracting that nobody else had heard about yet But it matters to know about it and to be early That manifests itself over and over and over again and I don't know how you quantify and put an ROI on that but It's it's huge.

It's huge. I mean, it's again, it's the kind of thing that I think our member firms intentionally. dedicate senior staff time to like go participate in things so that you have that opportunity to learn. And ACC provides it in spades. I just think people don't really quantify it and think about it ahead of time.

Moving ahead, let's touch on just a couple of other things about your time as [00:41:00] board service. And then I want to close with a look at the year ahead and maybe a couple of personal questions. Talk about, A C. E. C. National. A couple of things. If you would both the tactical opportunities like the national conferences, the orientations and things like that, but also the 30, 000 ft value of things like the Research Institute, some of the papers that come out.

You know, we are focused on the state level because that's who we serve. But I think we'd be remiss if we didn't put a couple of minutes time into what a C. C. National does as well.

Cameron McGown: You want to touch on that, or?

Agnes Otto: Yeah, let me, let me take a run at it. Okay. And if I miss something, Cameron let me know.

I was reminded just this past week we had the budget, budgeting conference with Erica Jensen and, and folks at National. The thoughtfulness with which they're building the budget, the the dedication to getting the right people out front You know, for in an [00:42:00] industry where we do have more than our share of introverts, it is really important that we are not slowed by a lack of people who want to stick their hand out and meet important people.

I think the things that folks like Steve Hall have done over the years coming out and meeting with our constituents, all of that's been incredibly important.

Scott Heidner: Can I offer, I certainly don't mean to interrupt you, but just so listeners know if they don't, Steve Hall heads up government advocacy at ACC National and he has for 20 plus years.

Agnes Otto: Yeah, perfect. And we've tried to make Steve Hall as comfortable in Kansas as we can. Sometime ask Jeff Hancock about their hunting trips.

Cameron McGown: I'd say the other component, and you touched on this earlier, but just some of the thought leadership that comes out of ACC National on really issues that affect every state. You know, these are federal policy type things. They're working tirelessly to try and you know, dive into some of the unintended consequences. They're advocating [00:43:00] for funding at the federal level. They do a lot of things that end up translating into affecting the business climate at the state level.

But even things like thought leadership on alternative delivery and lump sum contracting and you know, all those sorts of things that absolutely affect us here at the state level. They're very active and engaged in that. And they take their direction from the state organizations about what to focus on.

So, that two way communication between the state organizations and national is extremely important as well.

Scott Heidner: Yeah. Another thing about ACEC national events. If you go to them, the attendees are almost exclusively senior level folks, decision makers.

And if you approach any of those events and they have so many, it's not just the two national conferences, it's coalitions and forums and all these things. For people that participate in those, if you walk into it with the mind frame of, I'm going to be intentional about business [00:44:00] development here, and you sprinkle enough business cards around.

Again, those are all decision makers in the room and when you meet somebody from Vermont that has an existing client relationship and all of a sudden that client is working on a project in Kansas and they go to that Vermont engineering company and they say, well, we don't have an office in Kansas, but as you all know, you're never just going to tell a client, no, who do we know in Kansas?

And that happens, that just extrapolates over and over and over again. Let me ask you one last fun question about this and then I want to take a brief look at the year ahead and close with some personal questions. But what is your favorite thing about serving on the board?

Cameron, let's start with you.

Cameron McGown: I guess I'd say really two things. The like I mentioned before, the ability to just interact with other extremely high quality individuals from the other firms and the camaraderie that is there and [00:45:00] the level of trust and candor that goes on within those board meetings, I think is a somewhat exceptional set of circumstances given that when we leave that room, we are competitors with one another.

And so I think that is a pretty special thing to witness. And then the other thing that I guess I would add is just being a part of that board. I do believe that ACC does have a meaningful role to play in affecting the business climate for our firms in the state, and they're, effective at it, and being a part of something that's effective is a pretty rewarding experience, too.

Agnes.

Agnes Otto: I will say there are not many things that I clear my calendar for three hours a month. I look forward to it. I've learned a lot in those meetings. Sometimes I think, and this is really important for anybody who might be out there considering interest in a, in a board position. You will continue to [00:46:00] learn about leadership.

In situations that have never occurred to you. It's really important how we treat one another around that table. The way that we express ourselves. I, I feel like I learned something in almost every meeting. And again, Cameron you said it, but the respect that we really all kind of lean in and support one another with.

I would like to say that I have loved writing the monthly newsletter.

Cameron McGown: That was, that was going to be my, If you ask what was our least favorite part, That's what I would have led with.

Scott Heidner: Well, and poor Agnes, it is January 27th.

Agnes Otto: And I haven't written it yet. That's probably my assignment for this evening's talk.

But, overachiever that I am, I want it to be worth people reading it if they actually glance through it, so, Anyway, it's, it's become a personal and professional challenge to make sure I get a little nugget in there for somebody who decides to scan their eyes over the words. But

Scott Heidner: that is awesome. [00:47:00] That is too funny.

Well, Agnes is right. You do as the president, you have to write a column for the monthly newsletter, but don't let that put you off pursuing the post. Well, let's touch very briefly on anything you might want to talk about about the year ahead. You know, I feel like we've got a lot more opportunities than we do challenges, frankly.

But anything you want to touch on that we will be focused on in the year ahead. Either proactively or in a defensive posture just to make sure nothing goes off the rails.

Cameron McGown: Well, obviously we're right at the beginning of the legislative session as we record this podcast. You know, Scott, you and your team and the board will be engaged as these things arise.

But we're always mindful of things that could affect the business climate for our firms. And that includes direct things like, water policy and transportation policy and things that are going on at the various other state agencies and in the vertical world and all the things for the firms that we represent, but we'll also be paying close attention to the dialogue around tax [00:48:00] policy and just what does that mean in terms of the overall health of the state budget and things of that nature.

So we'll be, we'll I don't know if it's a super active session coming up for us, but certainly it gets a lot of attention this time of year, just being watchful.

Scott Heidner: Yeah. I will say inevitably not all the time, but most of the time at the beginning of session, I have a sense of, you know, I'm not sure I anticipate this being all that busy of a session.

But almost every year it ends up being. There's something, there's something, and usually several somethings. Agnes, do you want to add anything to that?

Agnes Otto: Well, we're lucky Scott to have you and your crew looking out for us. And I would say across the industry, we're expecting this to be another really busy year.

It's still tough to find good people. Recruiting and retention challenges are real. I think membership engagement and some of those things to make sure that we've got the component. Industry members ready to help you help us is going to be really [00:49:00] important. But, once again, great time to be part of this business.

I think I used that when I had to write the last newsletter, the golden age of transportation, golden age of infrastructure. I mean, truly an incredible time and I think going to be that much stronger. Continuing with the blocking and tackling licensure threats, QBS, all those things.

But I think we're in a pretty good place, and with your view over to the Capitol from your office window I think You'll see if smoke starts rising.

Cameron McGown: Which, for the next few months, I get to lovingly gaze out that window in my role as vice president, my favorite role.

Scott Heidner: We can't bring it up and leave listeners wondering if we're babbling about something inane.

This is a tradition started by the great Kinsel Lynn at the, at the board, at the conference room in our office where the board so often meets. We do have a view of the Capitol. But you have to be looking basically away from the board meeting appearing at least a little [00:50:00] inattentive. So nobody does stare idly out the window of the Capitol.

But Kenzel Lynn many years ago made the executive decision without ever speaking the words aloud. He just executed on it. That once you're past president and you've given your all, you can take the seat of the far end of the table, face the Capitol, put your feet on the windowsill and enjoy the view. Even during the board meeting and he proved somehow to still be engaged in listening, but everybody loved the tradition and now it's the greatest part about being a past president.

Cameron McGown: Now it's just the expectation.

Scott Heidner: That's right. Well, let me finish with a couple of just fun personal questions to help our audience know a little bit more about the two of you. Agnes, I'll start with you on the first one of all the things that you did as a child with what I'll call discretionary time, hobbies, engagements, groups, and stuff.

What was probably consumed the most of your, the most hours in your childhood? [00:51:00]

Agnes Otto: Oh my that's a great one, isn't it? As a child since I grew up on a farm just that, that dedication to the, the nature and the world around me, you know,

Scott Heidner: even beyond the work that you were expected to do

Agnes Otto: our farm had a natural spring and it was down a pretty steep hill in the Missouri Ozarks and there was nothing that I loved more than to go down there. Our biology teacher in school knew that we had a plant called liverworts which grew there. And it was my job to make sure that a sample of that was brought into school every spring.

So, you know, there are some funny things that you get to be known for. But anyway, I might've been the teacher's pet in biology. Maybe that's why I chose my original career path.

Scott Heidner: That's probably one of the. healthiest hobbies we've had listed so far to be outside in nature. That is awesome.

Good for you, Cameron. I assume you have [00:52:00] something

Cameron McGown: I never brought any samples in in this, but you know, when I was growing up, my grandparents, Had a place down at Lake of the Ozarks and we would spend practically the entire summer there from The time school got out in May till it was back in in August So a lot of my time during especially obviously during the summer swimming and skiing and fishing and Canoeing and getting into the trouble that you know young boys get into my brother and I used to go get Lost in these creeks and everything, climbing cliffs and doing stuff that we probably shouldn't have been doing, but a lot of fun, great memories.

And you know, now we still have the place and I've got kids of my own and now they've developed a love for the place as well. It was the first place that I ever swam was off of our dock there at that Lake house. It was the first place that both of my kids swam was off of that same dock.

We spend a lot of time down [00:53:00] there and it's a constant from the time I was a kid.

Scott Heidner: Well, and what a great segue. You're not going to believe this, but my next question I was going to ask and Cameron, I'll start with you this time. Deeply personal question in some ways, but we want listeners to get to know you, not just about ACEC.

What is your favorite part was or is your favorite part about being a parent?

Cameron McGown: Oh man.

Scott Heidner: Yeah. How's that for him?

Cameron McGown: You got to give us a warning

Scott Heidner: So just the listeners know I send a kind of a rough outline to our guests of what we might talk about with the exception of these last questions. These are the ones we don't reveal and they're on the spot

Cameron McGown: Yeah, so I would say the thing that I have enjoyed and it is both an enjoyment and a frustration is in both of my kids.

They're so different in terms of their personalities, but I see [00:54:00] myself, I see my wife, and the good and the bad in both of them. It's like if you took half of the good in both of us and split it up, that's how it would be, and half of the challenge in both of us and split it up. So it is obviously very rewarding to watch that develop over time, but extremely frustrating about two thirds of the time.

But you know, I'm sure every parent, witnesses that same thing to some extent. I

Scott Heidner: suspect there will be a lot of heads nodding and understanding at that answer. Agnes, what about you?

Agnes Otto: So I have an amazing daughter. And as a single parent and rearing her I get all the credit or all the blame.

She remarkably took on my love of science and is a veterinarian. Couldn't be more proud of her for that. It's funny you know, she's in her third decade now and they still keep calling. And that is really special to me, and it makes me feel like I did a good job.[00:55:00]

Because they still keep calling. The challenges get a little harder, a little more nuanced. But she's also given me three amazing grandchildren. Olivia, Evelyn, and Maverick. And I love everything about them. My daughter has to remind me sometimes that she was my child, not the three of them but the worst thing that I'm doing right now is corrupting my two year old grandson to drink coffee with me because none of the rest of them will drink coffee, so.

Cameron McGown: Oh my,

Scott Heidner: that's awesome.

Agnes Otto: Now Maverick says, toffee good.

Cameron McGown: Decaf, I hope.

Agnes Otto: Very watered down.

Scott Heidner: Oh my gosh. Alright, last question and of course, my favorite cuz it has to do with music. If we were to turn your phone to its streaming service right now, what would be a few artists that we might find that you might be listening to?

Cameron, Agnes, let's start with you.

Agnes Otto: Man, I am just all about Chris [00:56:00] Stapleton these days. I'm a big singer, songwriter, lover anyway. There is just something about him. Love his heart and soul. And, I actually get kind of the benefit of, of listening to Chris Stapleton radio on XM, so that's kind of a fun genre as well, slicing through some things.

I wish I could remember, there was a group I heard yesterday and a song I'd never heard before. So that's kind of fun as well, so you get a little, you know, glimpse of stuff that normally you wouldn't tune into,

Scott Heidner: Very cool.

Agnes Otto: He's my new gig

Scott Heidner: And when you get a channel somebody has their own channel you do get exposed to lots of similar Artists that you would not have that's pretty cool.

All right, mr. McGown for last word of the podcast

Cameron McGown: Yeah, so this depends a lot on who's had control of my phone most recently if my daughter who's 12 going on 24 has had control of it, then it'll be Taylor Swift all day long. If I've had [00:57:00] control of this, it's Nirvana, Guns N Roses, stuff from when I was a kid, and I haven't really moved off of that too much.

So, yeah, That's it usually depends on who's been in control.

Scott Heidner: Yeah I didn't think about this when I asked the question, but this is the perfect way to end the podcast. This is, I couldn't have drafted a better segue. First, we talked about parenting, and then we talked about music. If you would share the brief version.

I'm just, I think you'll know what I'm talking about if you don't, I'll fill it out more. But your children, Cameron, went from being incredibly impressed, as young as they were, that you were the president of ACEC, to, wow, I'm actually not impressed at all.

Cameron McGown: Yeah, so there was a little communication glitch along the way, and when I was president of ACEC, they were convinced that I was saying ACDC, so they thought that I was somehow in [00:58:00] charge of the rock band ACDC, and I had to clarify that, in which case I became a lot less cool to their kids, almost instantaneously.

I do not have any, I do not have any control over the rock band ACDC.

Scott Heidner: You went from loads of street, street cred to almost none at all. That is one of my favorite stories. I love that. I love it. All right. Well, I want to thank you both for being here. Not only saying yes, but we ran over the budgeted time.

I told you it would take you guys have been gracious as always with your time and sharing your stories. So, thanks to both of you for what you do. And thank you for being here today.

Cameron McGown: Thanks for having us.

Agnes Otto: Cheers. Thanks.

Scott Heidner: Listeners. Thank you for tuning in. We will look forward to catching you on the next episode of the QBS express.